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Village Elder
Nate Erdmann
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PostSubject: tested positive   Thu May 07, 2009 4:13 pm

I can't believe manny "being manny" Ramirez tested positive for roids! haha 50 games.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 3:16 am

According to what ESPN has been saying today, it wasn't 'roids, just a banned medication. However, IIRC, the medication is banned because it does something to flush evidence of steroid use from your body, or help you recover from it, or something like that.

I can't believe 50 games is less than two months. Geez, MLB.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 3:54 am

It was a woman's fertility drug... aka balance the excess of testosterone to make the use of illegal performance enhancers transparent.

He's one of the games top profile players and he is still using... this sucks.

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circa1015
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 1:36 pm

Why does it suck? Everybody already assumes that most players are using anyways. This isn't any kind of revelation, just the next big player to get caught.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 3:59 pm

If I may, I think my feelings on Baseball may reflect why he thinks this sucks.

I think MLB is a fucking joke, and it's almost entirely due to the fact that all the players juice. Yes, I know some players in all sports take steroids, but it seems like in MLB it's a systemic problem. When McGuire and Bonds broke the home run records only to find out later they were both on 'roids, it honestly made me upset. I've never really ever been a baseball fan (MLB or otherwise), but I think it's fucking criminal that that record got broken by people who cheated. Speaking purely as a layman who really doesn't have much of an interest in the sport (and as such, take what I say with a grain of salt), as far as I'm concerned, most everyone who plays in the pros is a fraud and the Manny news just confirms my suspicion.

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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 8:09 pm

Actually, since 2004, people get caught using way more in the NFL and in NCAA football than in the MLB now because MLB has a stricter testing system. Usually, though, it is linemen and linebackers who can't rack up sexy statistics. You don't see Shawn Merriman getting lit up in the news like Manny did. He was roiding (and got caught) when he had that monster season (Edit - He got voted to the pro bowl by the fans that year too lol). The MLB kind of gets shit on because it is such a record centric league. I can see where you are coming from Tippin, but I don't really see how MLB is more of a joke than the NFL and I don't see the justice in quietly condoning use among the big guys in the NFL and college but all hell breaks loose when some skill player like Manny uses.

I hate that athletes are held up as role models for kids and that is why people jump all over them for being human. Manny doesn't give a shit about most people's kids. He cheated, he'll serve his 50 games, and if he does it again he is banned for like 2 years I think. I fucking hate that all there is on ESPN is Manny and Favre and it will be like that for 2 weeks at least.

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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Fri May 08, 2009 11:31 pm

It is easy to assume that baseball is getting the shit-end of the deal, but then again it makes complete sense that it would. Like you said, most of the steroid users in the NFL are linemen, and linebackers to a lesser extent. Shawn Merriman being caught was a big deal when it was discovered, but it wasn't earth shattering or anything, and that is because of the position he plays. To stick with the Chargers, if Rivers or LT got caught, it would be on the same footing as Manny or A-Rod, but there is a good reason hardly any QB, RB or WR will get caught: steroids would fuck up their game. Football, especially now, is all about speed, and significant steroid use would be too much of a detriment in that area to make up for whatever strength you gain. So your star NFL players are mostly going to be clean, by virtue of the type of athleticism their position requires. If steroids would help them increase stats and win games would they probably take them? Hell yeah. But football and basketball are fortunate that steroids usually will have a negative effect on franchise athletes, whereas in baseball you can become a star while standing around in the outfield or by first base, as long as when you step up to the plate you can smack the shit out of the ball and get those pretty homeruns everybody loves.

Oh, and Tippen, I completely share your sentiment on baseball in general.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Sat May 09, 2009 6:15 am

Baseball is shifting back to small ball though, which I am totally fine with. Partly because players as a whole are shifting off the roids but also partly because the asskicking the US has received in international ball.

Merriman was nowhere near as big of a deal as even Raf Palmeiro as far as coverage goes and that may have even been the same year.

I doubt that a cutter like LT has used because he doesn't need any more weight on his knees than he can actually put on, but I bet some of the bigger skill players have used HGH at least.

I don't know how that is any worse than shooting a guy up with painkillers so he can put on pads and kill himself every week. There are so many ways that sports aren't organic anymore it isn't even funny.

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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Sat May 09, 2009 12:29 pm

Samwise wrote:
I can see where you are coming from Tippin, but I don't really see how MLB is more of a joke than the NFL and I don't see the justice in quietly condoning use among the big guys in the NFL and college but all hell breaks loose when some skill player like Manny uses.

That's fair, and I don't condone steroid use anywhere. I'm not a fan of any professional sports leagues period, I only like college sports because of its balance of skill and "amateur"-ness (quotations because to call a lot of college sports amateur would be egregiously misleading). Since my only exposure to MLB is through SportsCenter naturally most of what I know of it involves juicing.

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circa1015
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Sat May 09, 2009 3:33 pm

On the way home from work this issue was being talked about (as usual), and a caller brought up a certain point that I'm curious what you guys think about it.

Basically, the arguement is that when McGwire and Sosa were chasing the record, and Bonds started, steroids were still not on the MLB's banned substance list, and were therefore fine to use. The show's host vehemently disagreed with that, stating that it still violated the "spirit of the game". I can understand where one would be coming from when taking that view, but I can't say that, if it isn't illegal, using steroids is still cheating. He claimed that by taking steroids, you were trying to gain an advantage that others don't have, but isn't everything you do to improve yourself falling into that category? Following that logic, you could say that players who have a good diet are gaining an advantage over the players that don't eat very well. Obviously nobody believes this, and there seems to be a gradient of how valid certain measures of self improvement are. I would say that this gradient loosely corrolates with the proportion of effort to reward. If two guys work out the exact amount of time but one guy decides to stick himself in the ass with a needle full of some chemical and gains a significant advantage, we say that this is cheating, but if it is legal, and the player is aware of and fine with the repercussions, then how is it not just smarter? If it is legal, then you can't say that taking steroids is an "unfair" advantage, because there is nothing stopping the other players from gaining that advantage themselves. Clearly this is now irrelevant, as steroids are now banned, but I think that the notion that steroid use back before it was a banned substance was still cheating is debatable (and that is where I stand on it, I'm not articulating my views on it here necessarily, just presenting one side).
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Sat May 09, 2009 5:59 pm

Even if it wasn't a banned substance according to baseball steroid use was illegal without a prescription for a disease that required steroids for treatment. I don't care who used the over the counter stuff like andro when it wasn't banned because it was readily available to every ball player. One has to cross a line to forge a prescription for some kind of testosterone or to find a doctor who will do it for you. Not everyone is willing to break laws to attain a higher level of performance; really, I think that most players wouldn't do this. If MLB was just handing out roids to its players every spring then it would be hard to blame the people who used, but the players who did use actively sought them out and broke federal law to gain an advantage. I would say that use then was still morally wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Tue May 12, 2009 10:00 pm

Taking a diet isn't illegal. Steroids were and they used them. What manny used also improves performance and helps recover from use of steriods. Its a watered down steriod basically, not as harmful to the body. The absolute biggest deal about Manny being the most talked about MLB player, and being caught is that means how many others are still using HGH. There is no test for HGH and no reason for players to not be using it. When they do get a test they will know about it long enough to stop using. The fact is even bosworth did steroids and baseball players were more than likely doing it then, how long do we have to look back to find the best natural baseball player. God this sucks.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Wed May 13, 2009 3:00 am

I'd have to say the good ol' days of baseball purist's reminiscence is over. The only thing to do back then was have kids, work, and watch grass grow. Hitting a ball of cow shit with some wood was the bees knees.

Now we have online porn, television, drugs, cell phones, cars, steroids, etc., and even with copious amounts of beer and msg laiden hot dogs, it's still not up to the excitement par of today.

I say give them all the pills and genetically modifying supplements they can choke down. Do whatever needs to be done to make the shit more exciting. If I turn on the tube, or if god forbid it's broken and I have to leave the house, I want to see a freak show.
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PostSubject: Re: tested positive   Wed May 13, 2009 2:24 pm

It seems to me that somewhere between '93 - '98 (the HR derby year) it became immensely popular. It's hard for me to believe that any established major leaguer couldn't make one phone call to a player, or a clubhouse assistent, and get what they wanted. Now that we know Manny is using, in the face of the most scrutiny of almost any player in the league, I have to agree with Tony, and believe that everyone is using.

It's time for a reboot, this isn't getting fixed.

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